{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/n872v2fc8k/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Davis, Katherine"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/548/original/OHA_Mark_2.0_Transp._copy.png?1752767076","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Narrator(s)"]},"value":{"en":["Katherine Davis (Full Name)","Kathy (Other Nicknames)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Refer to as"]},"value":{"en":["Katherine"]}},{"label":{"en":["Narrator Pronouns"]},"value":{"en":["she/her"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interview Summary"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eKatherine discusses her childhood in Cabrini-Green that led to love and pursuit of singing. As a child recognizing how the lack of opportunities, funds and resources in her community led to continuously wish for a brighter future and to work harder outside of school. While acknowledging that racism was still very prevalent Katherine used her talents to make opportunities for herself despite the negative stereotypes associated with public housing in Cabrini Green.\u003c/p\u003e (summary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Public Housing Affiliation"]},"value":{"en":["Former Resident"]}},{"label":{"en":["Public Housing Locations"]},"value":{"en":["Cabrini-Green Homes"]}},{"label":{"en":["Content Warnings"]},"value":{"en":["Colorism","Death","Gun Violence","Overt Racism","Physical Violence","Substance (drugs or alcohol) use and/or addiction and/or trade"]}},{"label":{"en":["Themes/Topics"]},"value":{"en":["Freedom","Education","Music","Family","Community Building/Support/Mutual Aid","Celebrations and Holidays","Traditions"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keywords"]},"value":{"en":["red projects","white projects","discrimination","home loans","transition housing","dancing","singers","jump rope","sewing","gymnastics","elders","summertime","fish fry's","records","poverty","culture","adventure","rebellion","christmas","animals","traditions","pregnancy","generations"]}},{"label":{"en":["Decades Covered"]},"value":{"en":["1950s","1960s","1970s"]}},{"label":{"en":["Life Dates"]},"value":{"en":["1953 (Birth)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Race/Ethnicity"]},"value":{"en":["Black, African American, and/or African Diasporic"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interview materials available"]},"value":{"en":["Audio—other","Finding aid—rough PDF","Transcript—polished PDF"]}},{"label":{"en":["Oral Historians"]},"value":{"en":["Shakira Johnson (Interviewer)","Shakira Johnson (Post-Production by)","cosmo (Post-Production by)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interview Date"]},"value":{"en":["2021-03-18 (Recorded)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Method of Interview"]},"value":{"en":["remote"]}},{"label":{"en":["Recording Location(s)"]},"value":{"en":["Chicago, Illinois (Both)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Audio Quality Notes"]},"value":{"en":["phone chimes intermittently throughout interview, two same day interviews merged into one audio file"]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eEach oral history interview is considered to be co-created, ‘joint work’ among the oral historian, narrator, and, in this case, the National Public Housing Museum.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eNPHM manages the components of copyright (reproduction, distribution, adaption, performance, and display) using Creative Commons Licenses. Most interviews are shared with Attribution and Non-Commercial 4.0 International licenses (CC BY-NC 4.0 Deed), meaning that they can be reproduced, distributed, performed, and displayed for the general public IF the user:\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eCredits the co-creators (Attribution), and\u003cbr\u003eDoes not make money from the usage (Non-Commercial). \u003cbr\u003eNarrators also have the option to apply a No-Derivatives License to their interview(s), meaning that the public is forbidden from adapting the work. These works are published under an Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 4.0 International license (CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 Deed).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePlease contact the NPHM Oral History Programs Manager if you are interested in downloading a copy of any of the interview materials (audio file, transcript, or finding aid contents).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eNote that the final decision about whether to share downloadable copies and whether to allow usage remains with the narrator. \u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eWhen using an interview from the NPHM Oral History Archive, use the narrator's full name the first time you reference them. Use the narrator's \"Refer to As\" name in additional mentions of their name. \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePlease use the following formatting when citing the interview in academic settings:\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eBibliography Example\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePegues, Janetta Sue. Interviewed by Francesco De Salvatore. National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL], recorded June 18, 2018, accessed June 2, 2024: pp. 10-15.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eBibliography Format\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e[NarratorFullName in Last, First Middle order]. Interviewed by [InterviewerFullName in First Middle Last Order]. National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL], recorded [write out full date of interview], accessed [write out full date of most recent access]: pp. [pages of transcript cited]. \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFootnote Example\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eJanetta Sue Pegues, interviewed by Francesco De Salvatore, National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL], recorded June 18, 2018, accessed June 2, 2024: pp. 10-15. \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFootnote Format\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e[NarratorFullName in First Middle Last Order], interviewed by [InterviewerFullName in First Middle Last Order] National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL], recorded [write out full date of interview], accessed [write out full date of most recent access]: pp. [pages of transcript cited]. \u003c/p\u003e"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eKatherine discusses her childhood in Cabrini-Green that led to love and pursuit of singing. As a child recognizing how the lack of opportunities, funds and resources in her community led to continuously wish for a brighter future and to work harder outside of school. While acknowledging that racism was still very prevalent Katherine used her talents to make opportunities for herself despite the negative stereotypes associated with public housing in Cabrini Green.\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eEach oral history interview is considered to be co-created, \u0026lsquo;joint work\u0026rsquo; among the oral historian, narrator, and, in this case, the National Public Housing Museum.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eNPHM manages the components of copyright (reproduction, distribution, adaption, performance, and display) using Creative Commons Licenses. Most interviews are shared with Attribution and Non-Commercial 4.0 International licenses (CC BY-NC 4.0 Deed), meaning that they can be reproduced, distributed, performed, and displayed for the general public IF the user:\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eCredits the co-creators (Attribution), and\u003cbr /\u003eDoes not make money from the usage (Non-Commercial).\u0026nbsp;\u003cbr /\u003eNarrators also have the option to apply a No-Derivatives License to their interview(s), meaning that the public is forbidden from adapting the work. These works are published under an Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 4.0 International license (CC BY-NC-ND 4.0 Deed).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePlease contact the NPHM Oral History Programs Manager if you are interested in downloading a copy of any of the interview materials (audio file, transcript, or finding aid contents).\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eNote that the final decision about whether to share downloadable copies and whether to allow usage remains with the narrator.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["National Public Housing Museum"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["National Public Housing Museum"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/548/original/OHA_Mark_2.0_Transp._copy.png?1752767076","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/278/013/small/Untitled_design.jpg?1750721640","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Davis__Katherine_Interview_Audio_Merged_2021.03.18.m4a"]},"duration":4670.78676,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/278/013/small/Untitled_design.jpg?1750721640","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-nphm.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/278/013/original/Davis__Katherine_Interview_Audio_Merged_2021.03.18.m4a?1750570702","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mp3","duration":4670.78676,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Katherine Davis Transcript [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"Oral History Interview #1 with \n\nKatherine Davis\n\n\n\n\n\nOral History Archive\n\nThe National Public Housing Museum\n\nConducted 2021, Processed 2025\n\n\n\nThe following oral history is the result of a recorded interview with Katherine Davis, conducted by Shakira Johnson. This interview was conducted in two sessions on March 18, 2021, and is part of The National Public Housing Museum’s Oral History Archive. Readers should keep in mind they are reading a transcript of the spoken word, rather than written prose and are encouraged to refer directly to the original audio when possible. The following transcript was created by Cosmo.  The narrator is in the process of reviewing this transcript.  Readers should also bear in mind that the beliefs, opinions, and/or any offensive language expressed by the Narrator do not represent The National Public Housing Museum.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=0.0,1.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Okay. Hi, this is Shakira Johnson. Today's date is March 18th, this is a Thursday in 2021 and I am here with?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=1.0,14.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Katherine Davis!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=14.0,16.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Awesome! Thank you, and can you start off telling us a little bit about when you moved into public housing, what your experiences were like from then until now?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=16.0,29.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Well, um, my parents when I was born—I was born on the North Side of Chicago, somewhere around Milwaukee and Halstead and somewhere up in there (because on my birth certificate it doesn't—it didn't give addresses, okay). So, my family moved into the Cabrini Green projects in 1957. Now, before we moved into—now, there were three sets of projects. There were the row houses, which we, we lived in at first and then we moved to the red projects. Now, when we were living in the row houses, the white row houses, the Italians were living in the red projects. And then they eventually moved out, and then the Black families moved into the red projects. The white projects came a few years later. It was, uh, well, being a young girl— I was born in 1953, so I was like four years old, um, [hushed tone] let me see, was Nancy was born in— [louder] It might've been even sooner 'cause I know both my youngest sister and brother were born there and I think they—well, yeah, '57 and '58 so I—[phone noise] Oop! I don't know how to shut that part off, anyway. So we, uh—so, as a little girl, it was like, you know, it was a [pauses] It was a wonderful experience for me. A reason why I know when I look at it now, after we moved out of the projects—which, we moved—we left the projects in 1967. And I remember we were so sad. I was crying and everything, because I didn't wanna leave—I didn't wanna leave the North Side, I didn't wanna leave, uh, you know, where we had—I, you know, where I grew up and my most—and my memories were, you know, were the best and moving to the South Side where there was, you know, lots of discrimination and, you know, just a lot of—just darkness. And that was because, from what I understand, Blacks were allowed to finally open up bank accounts and then they got loans to buy homes. So a lot of black families were moving out of the projects to buy their own homes. So that part is what I remembered, uh, you know, that it was—you know, it was, uh, I didn't know that the projects was something that, you know—it was like a transit. You don't live there your whole life, you just stay there your whole life, and then you move on but we were there more than 10 years. So, but the—what I remember the most is that it—we had so much of what we needed, and not so much of what we wanted which meant that we created from what we had. We created from our senses [phone noise] and we created together. We—music was very, very popular in the projects in Cabrini Green. You know, Cabrini Green played a big part in making a lot of the dances popular! And so, we were having—my oldest sister, she was a teenager and so she—we had, uh—she was involved in dance groups and she was, you know. And there was a lot of musicians and every building had their own groups of singers—[crosstalk]—had their own groups of singers and musicians and people who, you know, we mastered jumping rope. We mastered sewing, we mastered, uh, our—just, like, with the singing groups and jumping rope and, uh, gymnastics. And so we, we had—we were a family and, you know, we respected the elders. If the elders saw us do something, of course they would tell on us and if they told on us, if they caught us doing something, we would get in trouble. So, we respected them and, uh—but we were able to do so much. We had the Italian feast, because they had a community center. They—they had moved—the Italians had moved out of the red projects but they were, they were still present because they had a community center right across the street from us and they—we would have what they called the Italian Feast. Every year, and it was during the summertime and it would be a weekend feast of festivities. And so, we had—it was a festival and a carnival! And so that was the time where we could stay up all night long and stay outside! And all—and the adults, you know, they had—we had card parties. We had Friday night, Saturday night fish fry's. My parents, um, kept us around music, records and we had—we always had a brand new record player and we had the weekend parties, and the weekend dance parties. And we just—it was just all revolved around creating and having fun.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=29.0,419.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Um, as far as, like, poverty? I—believe it or not, I know it might sound crazy—but I don't remember even—I don't even remember seeing poverty within that community. And, um, and I did not see, um—I didn't see roaches! And I didn't see mice! [laughs] So that was—that says a lot, you know. That says a lot to be—because it, you know, when they write about Cabrini Green—when they wrote about Cabrini Green—they said infamous, which was like—that was a negative word back in the 50s and 60s! I—I looked for, you know, people who lived in Cabrini Green back in the 50s and 60s and I really haven't met anyone. They will say they're from the 70s and the 80s, but we were there for the 50s and 60s. So it was—it was a wonderful time to—for me, and my sisters and brothers and so, of course we had our little—we had our toughness and everything and, you know, we would be challenged and stuff like that. With me being a little short girl, I had to really show my toughness, you know. Show that even though I was short,  I could still— [laughs] I could still—I could—if I needed to fight, I would have a fight. And those fights was just, you know, um, just you know pushing each other and stuff, not the other terrible stuff that, you know, people do now. So, um, we had the greatest of the cooks that cooked in the building. I remember taking the elevator—and that's another thing, too. Our elevators and our floors were kept clean and, actually, we had like three or four janitors for the buildings. So, um, we had—and we had clean laundry rooms because I always used to—when I got old enough—I always loved washing. So I would always, you know, say—ask—can I go to the basement and do the family laundry? And I would be down there by myself doing the family laundry and, um, out of all those years, nothing happened. The only thing that was happening in the basements was the basement parties. We had basement parties all the time where everybody from all the buildings would come and do— [phone noise]—would come and do the Bop. 'Cause the Bop was the dance of that—during that time. The Bop and then of course the other dances of the Jerk and the Twist and the Shake and the, you know, all the—the Roach, the Mashed Potatoes. We had all those dances—the Four Corners—we had all those dances that we were, you know, that we would have these dance competitions. So that was what was in the basements, basement parties and I couldn't go into the parties because I was too young. It was for teenagers, teenagers only and, so, I would be standing outside the gates—the gate that when you—that would go into where the dances were and I would just stand and watch them dancing through the fence—it was a fence, like fences. And, um, and I would watch and I would remember thinking, \"Wow! I wanna—I'll be glad when I get old enough to where I'll be able to, um, I'll be able to go in and go and dance and everything!\" because I always loved to dance. And we used to have these—also, with the dancing—when we had these, um, house parties, it was—they had it set up that all of us children would dance to the songs that Daddy played on the record player. And we would dance and everybody who—when you dance real good everybody would throw money at your feet! And so, that made real dancing—dancing Real good because you was getting money thrown at your feet! And then after the dance with the children—and that was children—that was the one year olds on up, right. Then there was—then it was the teenagers. The teenagers had their chance to get up there and do their dances and stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=419.0,722.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: And then it was the adults. So we used to get a kick out of watching our parents and the other adults dancing. Back then it was Rufus Thomas doing the Dog. [giggles] And so, watching them do the Dog or slow dancing and stuff, we would just be giggling away and, and, you know we was just so happy, you know, because we knew that our parents was hardworking people and they were, you know, just having so much, you know? Having work and, um, us—my older sister she was responsible for the younger ones. She would make sure that we kept the house clean. Then we had to do the aerowax. We had to, we—we had to scrub the floors with rags and then we had to wax with aerowax—wax the floors. And, uh, waxing the floors meant that we were gonna be having a dance coming up soon and cause you dance on the shiny floor in your socks, you could really dance, right! Mashed potatoes and [giggles] do all the—just doing, you know—be free to do all the dances and everything. I never knew of anybody who fell out a window. I never knew of anybody who got killed, but I did know here that some of the boys would be playing Russian roulette and then it would be, uh—somebody would talk about it, that someone had died from playing Russian roulette. So, um, that was what I remembered about that. Um, the uh— [crosstalk] Sorry.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=722.0,829.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: I was gonna say, uh, sounds like you have a lot of good and bad memories, maybe, of public housing, but I was wondering—how would you describe yourself, um, as a young teen? Or as a younger you in public housing?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=829.0,848.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Well. [laughter] I learned to read—well, I mean, they taught us. We learned how to read, write, spell, count and talk. And I—and I appreciated that. I did not like school because they didn't teach us. We learned about other cultures. We learned about everybody but ourselves. Everything that was about us was not good and we had Little Black Sambo. That was the stories that was in the—in the schools. The little African boy who had magic powers to take a pan of tigers milk and spin it around really really fast until he turned it into a pan of gold, but we were thinking the adults would say, \"but yeah, he could spin [unclear] around, and turn a pan of milk into gold, but he still couldn't get out of his situation. So, you know, we thought about that and was like—you know, going to school I was always—I was always looking out the window because I wanted to go out and explore the world. So, I ditched school. I ditched school and—because I wanted to venture out and I did. And that's, you know, um—my friends and I, who was ditching school too, we would walk. We would walk to the West Side and cause, we—I had wanted to go to Lucy Flowers 'cause I thought it was a special school for young black girls. And so, we would walk over there—it was silly—we would walk over there and get there in just enough time when school was letting out and try to make it like, you know, just wanted to be in the environment. 'Cause it couldn't have been, you know, I wanted them to think that—or we wanted them to think that we went there because they were wearing uniforms and um, we weren't wearing uniforms. Jesse White was our gym teacher, and so we, you know—I was just more of a—I wanted to adventure out. I would—we would walk downtown, hangout, just walking because we couldn't go into places. We couldn't go into stores. We couldn't go into the libraries. We couldn't go into a place where we could just go learn something, you know, that was inside. We had to learn what we saw on the outside. Um, I was, uh—I had my own rebellious ways because I felt that I deserved more. But, since I was walking all the time, of course, my shoes—my shoes would be run over and we didn't get, you know, new shoes every time our shoes ran over. So we were wearing pat—not patent leather—but we would wear—wearing, um—penny loafers with the pennies in the shoe. I would, uh—when my shoes runover and everything—I would take my shoes and, um, put cardboard in the shoes and then I would take needle and thread—because we all knew how to sew as well. And back then, we sew—we sewed with cat gut and I would sew my shoes up, and I just kept on walking. So, I was—I didn't like that part of not being able to  have the clothes that I wanted to wear, uh, because back then you wore—[laughs]—pretty much, you had to wear the same thing for the whole week. And when you got home from school you had to take your clothes off, and then you would wear them for the rest of the school week. So—but for like holidays, like Easter, we didn't get, you know—we didn't get Easter clothes. So, um, we didn't get, you know—we didn't even hardly get Christmas gifts and we didn't have birthday parties. And so, I was rebellious in that way and so, I didn't want to go to school.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=848.0,1138.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: I wanted to just be in control of my life and do what I wanted to do that was gonna make me happy. Which, I ditched school. And, um, I—like I said, you know, we ventured off and, you know, I don't remember getting stopped by the police or asking, you know, \"Why aren't you in school?\"And a few times they did do that. One time, [laughs] I walked—my friends and I walked to the West Side and we didn't time ourselves right. So, we were supposed to be back by the time school got out, right? Well, we walked [laughs] and by the time we got home it was like 7 o'clock in the evening and I was in Big Trouble. So, of course, I got a whipping, um, but we didn't have those kind of whippings. It was—hit you on your arm or on your leg or stuff like that, but I didn't wanna get hit at all 'cause I was like—it was just cause I wanted to be somewhere else, you know. [laughs] And so from, uh—because I didn't want to go to school, they ended up sending me to, uh, [unclear]. I went to the bad girls school. Sorry Jason! [laughter] I went to the bad girls school and I hurried up and got out that sister because I found out that I wasn't as tough as I thought I was. Um, you know, because back then it was like—no, but that's when I saw terrible things that I didn't know anything about, that I had never seen in the projects and that was, um, girls that had grown up in Logan Square—they were bad girls—and they were, um, in the closet—coat closet—they were sniffing, uh, paint thinner in a brown paper bag. And I was looking at that, I was like, 'What?! That's not me!' and I hurried up—I saw that I wasn't supposed to be there. I hurried up, straightened up, and came outta there. So I was about—I was 12 years old, and, uh, after that—then, uh, I went to Cooley—Cooley High and I stayed at Cooley for about a year then my—that's when my family moved out of the projects and moved to the South Side. But Cooley High was—everybody had went to Cooley High and it was like all you could—everything that you wanted to do, you had to just be a teenager and then you could have the freedom to, you know, to have a boyfriend or girlfriend or, you know, hangout a little bit longer and walk, you know, and just—you know, have all kinds of dances and—but it wasn't anything about learning about history, you know.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=1138.0,1353.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: I was saying previously that we didn't have—we were never invited to museums or libraries. We were never invited. We were never even invited to the zoos. I didn't get—I didn't know—I go to them until I had my own children and I was, uh, 16 when I had my first. So when they got old enough then I was, you know, uh—because I always thought that we weren't supposed to be there and if we did go there, it was nothing—it wasn't gonna be anything there about me, you know, or about my culture there that was gonna be positive. So, I didn't see— [phone ringtone] I didn't see an interest in that. So, I saw the importance of getting on the train. Taking the A and the B train, taking them to the end of the line in every direction. The brown line, all those trains I took to the end of the line and back and—just so I could see what was on the other side. See how people, you know, what people looked like and how they acted and if they, you know, if they—it was like you—when you was around white people, you had to, like, look down. You couldn't look up in their faces. You had to look down 'cause you didn't, you know, you just—I guess, I don't know if that's what we were taught, but I know that was what we did. So, I said—and then living in the projects, you know, we had the magnificent view of downtown and I was at 1017 N Larrabee. It was 1015 and 1017, they both together, and so my windows—our bedroom windows—faced downtown. And I remember, you know, looking out my window everyday and looking as far and wide as I could see and looking at downtown and saying—because I had always wanted to sing—I said, \"I'm gonna sing in every building that's downtown Chicago! I'm gonna sing in those buildings!\" And, believe it or not, I have sang in many many buildings downtown Chicago. [giggles] And, uh—groundbreaking parties. So, um, I had my good side and I had my not so good side, but I thought my not so good side was because I didn't want—I was trying to change. I didn't want to be, like, afraid and feel like I was, you know, that I was being judged just by my skin color, or my height, you know, because—also, back then, we didn't have mirrors. A lot of Black families don't have—didn't have mirrors in their homes. They only had the bathroom mirrors and because—you didn't want to look at yourself, because you, uh, because you wanted to be white. And so, we used to—we made Nadinola skin cream—we made that company billionaires because all of us were using bleaching cream thinking that we could use this cream and it was gonna turn our skin white. And it didn't. All it did was, you know, you put some cream on your hands and you just keep rubbing. Your skin—the top layer's gonna come off but you still black! you know [laughs] And so it finally—we finally realized that that wasn't gonna be. So—hold on 'cause, let me take a sip of water.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=1353.0,1608.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=1608.0,1609.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: What we had to do was—because we didn't have mirrors—we had to go by hearsay. We had to go by, say, if I got my hair—we were wearing—I was wearing Shirley Temple curls. My mother do our hair on Sundays, wash our hair on Saturday and then on Sunday, wash and curl our hair. And then, uh, after we get our hair—all the girls get their hair done [coughs] they would go to my father and ask—and my father would pull our hair to see how long our hair was and then he would give us his approval that our hair was pretty. And then, um, as far as how we looked, the way we dressed, uh—we had to go by what they told us how we looked. We didn't look in the mirror. They would say, \"Oh, okay!\" you know, \"You got something on your cheek,\" or \"Fix your—let me straighten your eyebrows—let me spit on your eyebrows and straighten your eyebrows out,\" \"Here! Blow your nose!\" you know, \"Let me fix your shirt! Let me fix your dress! Let me—\" you know, \"Fix your socks, tie your shoes up!\" You know, you had—they had to tell you how you looked. And so, um, that is something, you know, I can see that it still—it still trickles into our makeup of today where our children don't like to look in the mirror. Now they do they lil selfies and everything and poke their lips out and stuff like that! [laughter] But, back then it was—it was not. There were the generations that didn't even wanna look at themselves because they wanted to be white, they wanted to be [unclear] believe it or not. And, um, you know, with the Tarzan being, you know, in control of the tribes and animals and all that—we were brainwashed into that and believing a lot of that. That was apart of all of the breakdown. So there were, there were many breakdowns and I found—I found—I thought I found a way to come out of those breakdowns and make it something else. And the only way I would've been able to do that was the way that I did it. Not going—not being interested in school because there was nothing there and then being out and adventuring, even though I was gonna be in trouble and—with my family, you know. And then, you know—and my father would always say, you know, \"Your name is the most valuable thing that you have.\" When someone speaks of your name and they—someone says, 'oh yeah! I know her! She's, you know, she's a good woman, and she's—her word is her bond and she's this, and she's that,' and so, my father was that way and so,  you know, I always remembered that. So, you know, my father—I always wanted to be like my father 'cause he was the one who took care of the business and, you know. Mama was like, mama was the babysitter—or, she did eventually get a job 'cause the factories—the catalogue factories or warehouses were all around there. Montgomery Wards, uh, um—Alden's, uh— and they were further near Chicago Avenue. And so, my mother was working there at Alden's—but first, before that, she was a babysitter. And so, back then—sorry if I'm scattering going here, there, and everywhere.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=1609.0,1854.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Oh no, it's okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=1854.0,1855.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Okay. So, my mom—and other women in the buildings—were babysitters. So they babysat for babies, you know—for families—whose parents had to work. And back then, it wasn't Enfamil or Similac. It was breastmilk and even—not even breast pumps, yet. So, our mothers breastfed all the babies that they babysat. Even though they were not their children and that was how they did it. They breastfed all the children that they babysat, until they started making the breast pumps. And then when the children would reach a year old and start getting their teeth in, then they would go on, um, Carnation milk. You take a can of Carnation milk, some Karo syrup and a quart of water and mix, uh, sweet milk for them. And that was when it was time for them to go on bottles. And so, um, you know, that was something that I thought was unique because, I mean, I'm sure that was something that was apart of our tradition from, you know, back during, you know—going back to, you know, plantations—they had to do that. So, um, a lot of people didn't know about that—like they didn't know about with the mirrors—Black families didn't have mirrors. And so, uh—and you know, you had to go by how, you know—by what somebody else said how you look. And I remember some relatives that came from out of town that would come over and all of us—me, my sisters and brother—all of us would have to stand in line, by ages, and the relatives would come and say, [voice softens] \"Oh, look at—Oh Darryl, she's a teen—she's getting bigger! She's a teenager, oh wow!\" \"Wow, yeah! She's got long, thick hair and she's dark!\" And, \"Katherine, hey! Katherine you—oh wow! Your hair is long and thick! And you suck your thumb, and you're short!\"\"And—and—and, lil brother, oh! He's got beautiful eyelashes, and—but, he's got big ears!\" And this was how—this was part of the breakdown too! And, so—and we still do that! And so when—so I used to always want to—when I was 12 years old, I actually wanted to get pregnant. I wanted to get pregnant, because I wanted to have my own children just so that I could raise my children the way I had thought they should grow up, or be taught and, um, it was just—it was—it was just something that was—you would've had to live it, you know? You had to live, live all of that and I—we didn't know abut teenage girls getting pregnant until! my sister was 16 years old and she was pregnant, and we didn't know it. And she had the baby, my niece, in the bathroom and so, that was the first time that I had heard of any teenage girl that had gotten pregnant.  And then—and then after that, then it started becoming more, you know, noticeable that girls were getting pregnant, you know. So, um, it was—it was, uh—and then back then, too, um—so after my sister had the baby, so then, since you have a baby, you have to get married. And, so, my parents were going to get the approval for her to get married, but the baby's father parents would not give the approval because he was 16 also [chimes] and so we had to try—they were trying to convince his parents that they needed to get married because you didn't want a child out of wedlock. And, so—and I remember when they were trying to get married and back then it was—you could not—you could not get married unless you took a blood test and if your blood test did not match, you could not get married.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=1855.0,2187.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Do you remember what year this—this happened in?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2187.0,2191.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: This was in the 60s, early 60s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2191.0,2193.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Okay.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2193.0,2195.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Mid 60s—no, not mid 60s, because we moved out. So, this was, uh, early 60s.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2195.0,2202.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Okay. And then for your, uh—because you covered a lot of experiences as far as being in and outside of public housing. I'm wondering if you can share with us, um, how you think people view public housing? Or if you—once you first moved into public housing, if you actually knew it was public housing or if you just thought it was regular housing, or if there was even a difference?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2202.0,2230.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: We thought it was regular housing. It was—because we, you know, we lived on the West Side of the Gold Coast, so we were the Black Gold Coast. And so, things started changing when Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1968, that's when all the riots and everything occurred and everything was burnt down. And the—so the families who was still there—cause I—when we moved to the South Side, I refused to stay on the South Side. I kept going back to the North Side. I hopped that train and go right on back to the North Side. And then when the riots happened and everything got destroyed, I remember hearing people say, \"Who did this? Cause we loved this place, we're happy here! We didn't destroy Dell Farm or Pioneer! We didn't destroy the drug stores! We didn't destroy all the businesses that was in the neighborhoods!\" We didn't have—every—every—I mean, the businesses were thriving! All of Division got burned down. All of Larrabee—everything on Larrabee got burned down. Everything around that area got burned down, up 'til the Gold Coast going east. And so—so after the riots, after they had destroyed everything, that frightened me so I stopped going to the North Side. And then from there, my parents would tell us, \"Oh it's terrible over there, and it's so depressing and, uh, you know, a lot of violence is going on, and, um, you know—the police are over there all the time,\" and they're—you know, and so it's just really really sad for the people who couldn't—who didn't buy—who couldn't get out of the projects, they had to—you know, their generations had to—generation after generation—had to come—had to stay there in it, because I had relatives who lived in the white projects and they stayed in it. They stayed in it until they tore them down and, uh, so, the white projects—because Cabrini green was popular, um—I think all the housing projects were popular 'cause I remember also, we used to walk to Robert Taylor's when they were came up brand new.  We would go to the South Side hanging out looking to see what, you know, parties and, you know, dance parties, because we was wanting to, you know [chimes] get together and create dances and songs and singing groups, but they, um—they didn't start coming out 'til end of 70s that Cabrini Green was dangerous. Not Just Cabrini Green, but all the projects was dangerous and that, um—and that everybody who was in it, was stuck in it. And so, uh, after that—after that happened in the 70s, and then the 80s—I have a girlfriend who is a—she's Japanese—and she's an editor for the Japanese newspaper, Yoko. She asked if I could set up arrangements  for me to take her to Cabrini Green Projects because there was a story about a little boy who had been shot and killed from crossfire. And she wanted to—wanted me to escort her into Cabrini Green to speak with the people that lived in the buildings. And so, I did. I set it up, I took her there with um, uh—with a camera person and, um, and so—and it was 1117 and 1119 North Hudson and I took them to the buildings and of course the boys—the boys was always standing out in front of the building because they—that was normal, you know. That was normal to see them standing out there in front of the building, during my time, but during that—you talking 'bout 80s and 90s—it's all different now. So—but because I was from there, and I didn't show fear, I took Yoko there and introduced her to them and told them why we were there and they was like, \"Oh wow! Thank you so much for coming here! Thank you so much for being interested in what we do because they—they got it out there that we're real bad people! And we're not bad people!\" And so, Yoko, she interviewed them and everything and they were friendly to her, open to her, told her their personal stories and then they took us into, uh—into different peoples houses, apartments, and knocked on they doors and everything and the residents would open they doors and we could walk in—or look in— and see that all of the apartments were clean and decorated and, you know. And they didn't show any signs of, you know, a nasty house, or something that was unlivable—no furniture, you know. It wasn't any of that. And so, um—so from there, she was like, \"Wow Katherine, they gave Cabrini Green a Bad Name.\" I said, \"I know, I know.\"","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2230.0,2602.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: And so even still—even with the last ones to leave—you know, I mean, that's all they know. You know, they grew up in generations, after generations, after generations. They grew up there and they feel they know everybody and they're okay. You don't have to leave off—you don't have to leave out. We had the biggest playgrounds. We didn't have swimming pools, nobody knew how to swim so we didn't have a swimming pool but we had big playgrounds. We had the baby playground and we had the big playground. [chimes] We had those swinging competitions and running—we were—we had racing tournaments where, you know, you run around the whole square and whoever tapped the middle persons hand first was most likely gonna be the winner. So we was, like, running. We were fast runners and, so, we had everything right there. But still, like I said, when it came to school—no. I was—[long pause] \n\nEND of first audio tape. Transition to second tape.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2602.0,2690.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Awesome, okay. So this is Shakira Johnson. Today's date is March 18th. This is part two to our recording today, 2021. And I am here with—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2690.0,2703.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Katherine Davis!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2703.0,2706.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Awesome, thank you thank you. And then, could you tell us a little bit about how you wanted to become a artist or musician? And how public housing played a role in that?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2706.0,2723.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Okay. So, my mother came from a family of musicians. My mother, um, was a singer, but only for her children and my mother played piano but something in there, in her life, I don't know, some terrible things that occurred. And so she would tell us bits and pieces or stories about, you know, how she was raised and so what she did do for us, she—my mother had a beautiful voice and she would always sing to us, and because they—she was classically trained, and we had opera singers in our family. My mother would sing to us, and we would be singing and call—singing and responding to each other by singing operatic and so—and I would always love to hear my mother sing, and I would hear my mother say that she wanted to be—she wanted to be a professional singer, and that she wanted to travel on the road. And I would be listening to her and I was like, wow, that'd be something to boast about! My mother—my mother a singer, and she's traveling on the road. I want her to—I want her to do it so I can, you know, so I can boast about my mom, right? Because my mother was a wife and a homemaker, which I did not understand that at that time, and that was one of my rebellious moments, too. But from us singing and me hearing her voice, even today, when someone asked me, \"Who's your favorite singer?\" I have to say my mother, Ethel Helene Davis, and she had a beautiful voice, perfect pitch, and one of her favorite singers was Ethel Waters. And so I remember that movie called Cabin In The Sky, and I got to see Ethel Waters and her sing, and I was just so fascinated with Ethel Waters voice, and so I wanted to sing like her too. I wanted to sing like Mahalia Jackson and Aretha Franklin and Etta James and, you know, and Ella Fitzgerald or—and, you know, I wanted to just because they—their voices was so beautiful, and it was, you know. I—I knew that that was, you know, with them having the perfect pitch, and not, you know, not having—having a voice, but not having the control, and singing them high notes and, and screeching, and people would give them applause like they was, you know. They would—they would say it at a talent show, if somebody judges them because they had a high pitched voice, but they couldn't sing. I was like, No, I don't wanna have nothing to do with that. You know, that's not—because you gotta be—you gotta sing. So being exposed around the music with my father with—we always bought the records, and we had the record player, so we was always playing records. And I was always learning, you know, I wanted to sing like, you know—I was learning all of Aretha Franklin songs, and I was, you know—and so—and that was who I used also, as far as wanting to be in singing groups. And the reason why I chose Aretha, like The Supremes and The Marvelettes and The Shirelles and all them, because you were judged by your height. I was short and all everybody else was tall. And so when you saw these groups, you know, they were all tall and, or say, you know, same heights. And with me being short, I didn't fit into that, with having two background singers behind me, tall, and I'm short. So it was, you know, it was like you would be judged by that. So I thought, well, let me sing, you know, by myself. I could sing Aretha. You know, I could sing Aretha. So, Aretha sing by herself, so, let me just go ahead on and learn all her songs. I was never in any of the talent shows because I was too young. My sister—it was more of her age group with the talent shows and stuff.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=2723.0,3017.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: But as, um, as—after we moved to the South Side, that was when I got—as I got older, I got exposure. [chimes] We had a house. We had a house and our house, we had a basement, and, you know—and we were having a lot of basement parties. So we still, you know, we still had, you know—and so I started meeting musicians. And so we started—I started having rehearsals with musicians in our basement, and I was going towards a music career by then. So we're saying like 1979-80 in that area I start—yeah—I was going towards making it, you know, making it happen. So, um, so we had the basement parties and the profession—well, musicians having a jams rehearsals in the basement. And then we had, of course, the house parties, and then my exposure to the lounges and the clubs where I was meeting musicians that were older and, um—and so from that type of exposure, I was getting ready, you know, I was ready to start going out to sing. And so I wanted to take it further. I started studying at Sherwood Music Conservatory Downtown. I studied opera, um, because I wanted, you know, I didn't want to be just a lounge act. I wanted a big stage with an orchestra, and I wanted to wear the long gowns and look elegant. So I studied with my music coach, her name was Maria Delbert, and her—she played piano and she was my teacher, my coach, and her brother was a [chimes] violinist, Francois. Francois—Francois Delbert. And so we did—had a lot of recitals where I was singing. I was dramatic soprano, and so, you know, my voice was unique. And so she was pumping me up and saying, you know, that she wanted me to sing at the Metropolitan Opera in New York, and that I qualified for that. But by that time, I had already had a family and I had already gotten married. So, so, uh, and then you were judged. If you already had a family, you already married, then you was considered spoiled, and you couldn't be this young, fresh vocalist that—with a fantastic music career, you know. They couldn't, you know, like, they didn't want—they wanted your slate to be clean, you know, fresh new, you know, a virgin. And so—but we've still studying—I was still studying because she, she had, you know, high hopes for me. She just told me it was going to take longer for me to prepare for—to perform at the at the opera, at the Metropolitan Opera House and and so she, you know, she just helped me to develop my voice, where I was able to sing all styles of music. Now I did—in the projects, we grew up in the Cabrini Green, we went to church. We always went to church with—not my family—but with there were a lot of church women that they were the mothers of churches, and they, they would take us, kids, you know, and take us to church with them, which was all. day. long. You go early in the morning, you come back late at night. And Mama Daley was the one who took us to her church, which was [unclear] Church of God in Christ. It was 741 East Bowen. And I was in—my brother and I, we, we love both love singing, too. He's, he was a singer also. So we would put our own little singing groups together, and we were and we pretend we was in church. Now back to projects, okay? We would sing in church, [laughs] then we would have our own church service at home. So he would be the Minister, I be the choir, or, I'll be the minister, he would be the choir or the deacon or the usher, or, you know somebody, you know. We played parts in, in being in church. So we—because, you know, my mother sang to us and everything—we learned how to harmonize with each other. My brother, he passed away in 2017, so Wesley Davis. So— Junior, Wesley Davis Jr. So when we were singing in the church, I always had—I always had a blues voice. Everybody would always say, \"Oh! You sound bluesy!\" And I, at first, I didn't like that. I was like, \"That's old people music, and that's devil's music, right?\" Because I went to a sanctified church, right?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=3017.0,3358.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: And so I was in the choir—well, my brother was in the choir singing—and then the choir director came to say, and said, \"Katherine,\" Now mind you, I'm about—I'm about 12 years old, right? He says, \"Katherine, you need to lower your voice because singing too loud and singing too bluesy, and you are disrespecting God.\" And I was like, Oh man, I didn't want to disrespect God. I didn't, and I don't know I—then that means I don't—I don't know how to sing. I can't sing. I sing like an old person. So I stopped singing in church because I thought I disrespected God. And then when back—going back to living on the South Side of Chicago—I left that church and, and I eventually joined other churches and sang in their choirs and I was—and so at the—at Sherwood—she had, you know, developed, helped me develop my voice where I could sing in all styles of music, but she didn't want me to sing anything but opera. She didn't want me to sing Gospel. She didn't want me to sing R\u0026B. She didn't want me to sing Jazz. But during that time, my father had—was paying for my my voice lessons and everything, and my father was sick and passed away. And then my husband and I split up because I wanted to have a music career. And he, you know, when we met, we met on the job, but he, you know, he, he didn't want, you know—he couldn't take it. You know, he couldn't take the music business. So I—my father died and my husband, we split up. And so, with the music—with the with the singing at Sherwood—I had to, I had to end that, but I had learned enough where I could, I could take my career further on my own, because I was—I sang in a gospel opera, which was called Second Chance gospel opera. And then I studied at Kennedy King for a minute, and which I was in the production of Dream Girls. Something happened there, and they had to, you know, I had to—I had to stop going, but I continued to sing. And so, from there I was singing, um, I was singing at Life Center with T. L. Barrett and in his choir, but he was, he was like—so it ended up that I—my career—was about to go in another direction of I had, I was selected from Kuumba, Kuumba Theater, Val Gray Ward, to be in a musical production of In The House of the Blues, which I played—I portray—Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith. And so my acting abilities, you know, became stronger, and it was a wonderful show. And lot of great performers actually. And singers, and we travel. We performed here at in Chicago Downtown, and then we performed in 19—I believe it was 1986, 85 or 86—we went with honorable Harold Washington to Osaka, Japan. Osaka, Japan and Chicago, which became sister cities. And so Kuumba theater, along with other performing artists, Gus Giordano dancers, and then it was a jazz group called Jazz Merchants. We all traveled together, and we performed in Osaka, Japan for a week, and we got rave reviews and everything. And then, from there, I was, I was in—so what else was there about Kuumba? Um, but Kuumba was really where I really got my acting—my acting from, you know, theater. And then I was in a singing group called Ruben Lightfoot Sing and Ruben Lightfoot, and he was one of the greatest. He was one of the greatest vocalist teachers. He could—he could have—he could have his group, his singers. We sang so angelic. It was—we he taught us how to really control our voices in another way other than classical music. It was more—so spiritual and so soft and moving, and you could—the diction, a fiction—and the support of the, you know, the voices blending with each other. It was so beautiful. But Ruben passed away, and I—and then I left and went on my own to, you know, to other venues and stuff. So from there—because remember I said I didn't like the blues—but every time, every time I was saying, you know, somebody would always say, you—so, anyways, so when—when I really realized that I was going to go off in another direction again, I started—I was hanging in the jazz clubs on the South Side and, um, and then I started wanting to go North because the musicians and singers on the South Side, they didn't really want to go to the North Side. They didn't go nowhere. They just wanted to stay right where they are.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=3358.0,3768.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: And Von Freeman was having his sessions, jazz sessions, and his, you know, his nights for performing the clubs and it was the El Matador, which is the 50 Yard Line now—and that was actually where I had my first gig, too. And so we used to go there, and the Club Enterprise, and to the Knotty Pine and, and to all the jazz clubs, because Chicago was—the South Side was, oh man, you had two or three clubs on every block that was—you just go out, go in one door and go out another and go and hear everybody. It was no cover charges, and you got to hear some of the greatest music and everything. And so I was desperate, because I had been wanting to sing. I felt like I had a lot of making up to do from when I was a kid and I had wanted to sing, and I didn't really have—when I really wanted to sing was when I was very young in the projects, but I didn't—my parents didn't know what to do, you know, like my mother didn't know what to do either. She had a voice, but she didn't know how to, you know, take it further. And so I, you know, so she know, she couldn't help me. But once I found that doorway in, I was like, I got a lot of making up to do. So when I would hang out with all the musicians and they knew I could sing. They always call me up to sing, and they would—and I would be crying, [mimics crying tone] \"I want to sing. I want to sing.\" And they'd be like, \"Get Kathy up to sing! Let her sing! Let her sing now! Let her go next!\" So they was always, you know, I was like a little cry baby, but it was because I had—I needed to let it out and so, but, you know, that was, you know. They didn't perform on the North Side. So I start venturing out and went to the Gold Coast. Start hanging out in the jazz clubs on the Gold Coast with musicians and hanging out with them, and they will call me up, saying—but because I was, you know, I was—I still, you know. I still, you know—my name wasn't out there like that. And the names that were out there were performers who, you know, professional performers, and they, you know—they had, you know—they had a name. So, so, so, when I would go to the jazz clubs on the South Side, they said I was blues. Then when I got to the North Side—talkin bout club owners or musicians—they would say, 'she's a jazz singer.' So I said, \"Well, you know what? I can do both.\" So I went to the North Side. I went up there to the Kingston Mines and Blues on Halsted and other clubs that was open at that time. They played blues, had blues bands, you know, once, you know, I was introduced, and everything they would call me up to sing, and everybody—everybody was, was calling me up and everything. They was calling me up, but I was, you know, I didn't have—I didn't have a recording. And so, you know, I didn't have—I mean, of course you could just pick the band from the musicians that are already performing there and they—but I, you know, I got the experience and everything. And from that, I met great performers who started touring—who were touring. I traveled. I travel—I traveled overseas.  I performed for 10 years, that was from 1980—1988 to 1998 for the NACA—National Association for Campus Activities. I had the greatest, greatest agent, Josh Johnson. I performed throughout colleges and universities, throughout this whole country with the piano companies, and it was the greatest experience, and I traveled overseas. I did take a gospel group to Italy. I toured Italy with my gospel group. I started the first gospel brunch down at North Pier, which was at Dick's Last Resort. I did the jazz brunch at Joe's Be-bop Cafe for five years, which was at Navy Pier. And, um, I had—I performed for the for the National Governor's conference here in Chicago. And—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=3768.0,4075.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: I'm curious—I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. I was about to say I'm curious to, um, if you could describe for us what, what do you think the people from come—that come from public housing are like? [coughs] Because I know I hear stories of, like, all types of people coming from public house, and I'm just wondering what's your views on that—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4075.0,4098.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/31","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: I mean, people—I'm sorry I cut you off before you finished.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4098.0,4102.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/32","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Oh no, it's okay. I was just gonna say that, so, from the type of people who come from public housing, and what that experience meant to you, that impact—impacted the musician and the person that you are today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4102.0,4118.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/33","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: When I talk to people and they say they're from public housing, I get excited because I knew the type of people that were in there. You know, uh, [taps, grunts] What's his name? Okay, let me go back and I'll remember his name. But in Philadelphia, you know, they had housing projects too, and so—but here in Chicago, when I talk to people and they're all, you know, they're all from different—they're coming from all kinds of professions. You know, the Survivors. We look at it that we're the Survivors, because after the riots, and everything started going down. It went down in all of the projects, everything in, you know, the Robert Taylor's, the Henry Horners, the Ida B. Wells, the—what's his name across the street from Ida B, Wells? All the projects got a bad rap. And so for the ones who survived and they're—and they don't look like life kicked their butt, and they're—they're successful, or they just don't look like life kicked their butt. They might not even have a career, but you can tell that they were hard working people. They came from good families. They had both their parents and they had cooks, seamstresses, singers, dancers, ministers—everybody who could create something. It seemed like housing, the housing project developed people's—that, that—that part of them, that you gotta make something from within yourself, not because—it's either you gotta look out the windows. You can look out the windows and you can see far and wide, or you know, you're going to hear music coming from all directions, you know. You're going to hear somebody crying or laughing, or, you know, you're going to hear all of that. So the people that I have met have all said that they were happy growing up in the projects. So even my cousins who lived in the white projects and stayed until they ended—until they tore them down. My cousin—now she could tell you another side—because white projects represented something else. Okay, the white projects was totally something else from the red projects and the red projects became something totally different from the row houses. The row houses were people, older people that were more settled. The red projects were families that had children—had families. And then the white projects were—because Cabrini Green was so popular then—the people from the West Side started moving into the white projects and then I would hear people saying something, but either way—like Goose Island. You'll meet a lot of people from Cabrini Green that go to Goose Island. You know, Goose Island, the shrimp place? Right there on Division? They got those big jumbo prawn shrimps. Everybody that go there, pretty much from— that came up in Cabrini Green.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4118.0,4370.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/34","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: So if—oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. I was gonna say, so if you could come up with—well, when you think about public housing, if you could tell us one or two words that describe your overall experience in public housing or what it means to you, what would that be?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4370.0,4393.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/35","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Uh, happiness, and happiness—love and happiness.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4393.0,4405.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/36","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Nice, that's amazing. And then, if there was one hope you had for the community, um, that you came from—or any public housing—for future artists or musicians, or just anybody in general, what would that piece of advice be?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4405.0,4427.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/37","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: To have—to have hopes, dreams, and to be motivated to—to keep the strength to continue to make those make your dreams come true, in your own way, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or hurt you. There's always a way. There's always an outlook to life and I didn't know that it was a label until afterwards, and that label [phone chimes] was—was not true. Can I say something else too, Shakira?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4427.0,4475.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/38","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Yeah, of course.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4475.0,4478.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/39","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Okay, so I didn't mention about, you know that movie called Candyman, the horror movie?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4478.0,4483.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/40","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"SJ: Yes.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4483.0,4483.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013/transcript/92931/annotation/41","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"KD: Well, that was not true. Every—like I said,everything they said was negative. Candyman was a candy man that—his name was Mr. Foster and he would sell candy in the neighborhood throughout all the buildings. He had a station wagon and when he would be out there, everybody would be hollering, \"Mr. Foster! Candy Man, Candy Man!\" And we would all get our pennies together—because back then, a five pieces of candy was a penny. So we—you could get candy. So we would all be running downstairs, \"The Candy Man! The Candy Man!\" [phone rings] Well, they made it into, you know, they made it into a horror movie. And so, that, you know, that—and the movie Cooley High. I know Jackie, you know, a lot of great people came—Jackie Taylor came from there. Major Lance, Gene Chandler, Jerry Butler, and many others that you know came from there and we're all part of the music scene and the performing arts. So that just go to show you that it was just of, you know, that we did. We made something of it and continued to fulfill our dreams in the music business, so—or in the entertainment business, and being able to share this with others, to that, to let people know that there was—there, there was morals and respect and values and in our—in that type of experience for us. And so, [chimes] All we could do is just keep it alive by telling our stories and, um—and tell stories that tell the truth—like Edward Jenner at the museum. We have, you know, we lead the school tours, and I went to Edward Jenner school, and Edward Jenner came to visit us, and we led them on a tour. And I told them that I was an alumni of Jenner school, and they had the children—they were like, \"Oh, you went to Jenner? and you're here!\" and \"You—Oh, you, you look so beautiful,\" and \"you're so smart and, oh my, I'm so proud!\" because they didn't know that someone could come out of that—could come out of that environment because I'm sure they were probably told negative things too. Their parents and, you know, and their parents, parents said, some said—saw, terrible things, so, but I told them, I did not see terrible things. And they're like, \"really?\" I say, \"Yeah, I didn't see that.\"\n\nEND OF INTERVIEW","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/150725/file/278013#t=4483.0,4670.78676"}]}]}]}