{"@context":"http://iiif.io/api/presentation/3/context.json","id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/iiif/542j67b963/manifest","type":"Manifest","label":{"en":["Palmer, Crystal"]},"logo":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/548/original/OHA_Mark_2.0_Transp._copy.png?1752767076","metadata":[{"label":{"en":["Narrator(s)"]},"value":{"en":["Crystal Palmer (Full Name)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Narrator Pronouns"]},"value":{"en":["she/her"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interview Summary"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eIn this oral history Crystal describes her experience growing up in the Henry Horner Homes and having a challenging and tragic childhood. Crystal eventually begins working in Chicago Public Housing as a janitor, and ultimately becomes the president of her Local Advisory Council. Despite her challenges, Crystal says “I stand here today in greatness as a product of public housing.” and remembers the people of the projects that laid the foundation for her character and success. \u003c/p\u003e (summary)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Public Housing Affiliation"]},"value":{"en":["Resident (unsure timing)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Public Housing Locations"]},"value":{"en":["Greater ABLA Community","Henry Horner Homes"]}},{"label":{"en":["Content Warnings"]},"value":{"en":["Colorism","Domestic Violence","Substance (drugs or alcohol) use and/or addiction and/or trade","Death","Childhood Trauma","Chronic and/or Fatal Illness","Houselessness","Demolition and/or Displacement"]}},{"label":{"en":["Themes/Topics"]},"value":{"en":["Personal Growth","Personal Responsibility","Community Activism/Organizing","Family","Loss and/or Grief","Empowerment","Neighborhood Changes (incl. Urban Renewal \u0026amp; Gentrification)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Keywords"]},"value":{"en":["teen pregnancy","Thalassemia","hospital","surgeries","transfusion","janitor","crossing guard","bully","sobriety","strong women","Local Advisory Council"]}},{"label":{"en":["Decades Covered"]},"value":{"en":["1960s","1970s","1980s","1990s"]}},{"label":{"en":["Life Dates"]},"value":{"en":["1959 (Birth)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Race/Ethnicity"]},"value":{"en":["Black, African American, and/or African Diasporic"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interview materials available"]},"value":{"en":["Audio—.wav","Transcript—in Aviary time-sync","Transcript—polished PDF","Finding aid—rough PDF"]}},{"label":{"en":["Oral Historians"]},"value":{"en":["Raymond “Shaq” McDonald (Interviewer)","Shakira Johnson (Post-Production by)","jellystone robinson (Post-Production by)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Interview Date"]},"value":{"en":["2017-07-31 (Recorded)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Method of Interview"]},"value":{"en":["in-person"]}},{"label":{"en":["Recording Location(s)"]},"value":{"en":["Chicago, IL (Both)"]}},{"label":{"en":["Audio Quality Notes"]},"value":{"en":["there is an ambulance alarm around 18 minutes and 11 seconds. The interview ends abruptly, but it is assumed to be mostly finished."]}},{"label":{"en":["Rights Statement"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eEach oral history interview is considered to be co-created, ‘joint work’ among the oral historian, narrator, and, in this case, the Museum. In joint works, the creators are considered joint copyright owners, who have “an equal right to register and enforce the copyright” (Rich Stim, Stanford Libraries, “Copyright Ownership: Who Owns What?”). Standard copyright law grants a number of exclusive rights to each of the copyright owners, including: the rights toreproduce, distribute, adapt, perform, and displaythe work(s), privately and publicly. NPHM manages these components using Creative Commons Licenses. All interviews are shared withAttribution and Non-Commercial 4.0 International licenses (CC BY-NC 4.0 Deed), meaning that they can be reproduced, distributed, performed, and displayed for the general public if the user credits the co-creators (Attribution) and does not make money from the usage (Non-Commercial). \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePlease contact the NPHM Oral History Programs Manager if you'd like to download a copy of any of the interview materials (audio file, transcript, or finding aid contents).\u003c/p\u003e"]}},{"label":{"en":["Preferred Citation"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eWhen using an interview from the NPHM Oral History Archive, use the narrator's full name the first time you reference them. Use the narrator's \"Refer to As\" name in additional mentions of their name. \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePlease use the following formatting when citing the interview in academic settings:\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eBibliography Example\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePegues, Janetta Sue. Interviewed by Francesco De Salvatore. National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL/DOI], recorded June 18, 2018, accessed June 2, 2024: pp. 10-15.\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eBibliography Format\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e[NarratorFullName in Last First Middle order]. Interviewed by [InterviewerFullName in First Middle Last Order]. National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL], recorded [write out full date of interview], accessed [write out full date of most recent access]: pp. [pages of transcript cited]. \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFootnote Example\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eJanetta Sue Pegues, interviewed by Francesco De Salvatore, National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL], recorded June 18, 2018, accessed June 2, 2024: pp. 10-15. \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003eFootnote Form\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e[NarratorFullName in First Middle Last Order], interviewed by [InterviewerFullName in First Middle Last Order] National Public Housing Museum Oral History Archive, [insert URL], recorded [write out full date of interview], accessed [write out full date of most recent access]: pp. [pages of transcript cited]. \u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e \u003c/p\u003e"]}}],"summary":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eIn this oral history Crystal describes her experience growing up in the Henry Horner Homes and having a challenging and tragic childhood. Crystal eventually begins working in Chicago Public Housing as a janitor, and ultimately becomes the president of her Local Advisory Council. Despite her challenges, Crystal says \u0026ldquo;I stand here today in greatness as a product of public housing.\u0026rdquo; and remembers the people of the projects that laid the foundation for her character and success.\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e"]},"requiredStatement":{"label":{"en":["Attribution"]},"value":{"en":["\u003cp\u003eEach oral history interview is considered to be co-created, \u0026lsquo;joint work\u0026rsquo; among the oral historian, narrator, and, in this case, the Museum. In joint works, the creators are considered joint copyright owners, who have \u0026ldquo;an equal right to register and enforce the copyright\u0026rdquo; (Rich Stim, Stanford Libraries, \u0026ldquo;Copyright Ownership: Who Owns What?\u0026rdquo;). Standard copyright law grants a number of exclusive rights to each of the copyright owners, including: the rights toreproduce, distribute, adapt, perform, and displaythe work(s), privately and publicly. NPHM manages these components using Creative Commons Licenses. All interviews are shared withAttribution and Non-Commercial 4.0 International licenses (CC BY-NC 4.0 Deed), meaning that they can be reproduced, distributed, performed, and displayed for the general public if the user credits the co-creators (Attribution) and does not make money from the usage (Non-Commercial).\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003e\u0026nbsp;\u003c/p\u003e\r\n\u003cp\u003ePlease contact the NPHM Oral History Programs Manager if you'd like to download a copy of any of the interview materials (audio file, transcript, or finding aid contents).\u003c/p\u003e"]}},"provider":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/aboutus","type":"Agent","label":{"en":["National Public Housing Museum"]},"homepage":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/","type":"Text","label":{"en":["National Public Housing Museum"]},"format":"text/html"}],"logo":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/organizations/logo_images/000/000/548/original/OHA_Mark_2.0_Transp._copy.png?1752767076","type":"Image"}]}],"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/250/206/small/Crystal%E2%80%99s_Graduation_Portraits-17.jpg?1725653568","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206","type":"Canvas","label":{"en":["Media File 1 of 1 - Palmer__Crystal_Interview_Audio_2017.07.31.mp3"]},"duration":2872.92,"width":640,"height":40,"thumbnail":[{"id":"https://d9jk7wjtjpu5g.cloudfront.net/collection_resource_files/thumbnails/000/250/206/small/Crystal%E2%80%99s_Graduation_Portraits-17.jpg?1725653568","type":"Image","format":"image/jpeg"}],"items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/content/1","type":"AnnotationPage","items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/content/1/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"painting","body":{"id":"https://aviary-p-nphm.s3.wasabisys.com/collection_resource_files/resource_files/000/250/206/original/Palmer__Crystal_Interview_Audio_2017.07.31.mp3?1725653483","type":"Audio","format":"audio/mpeg","duration":2872.92,"width":640,"height":40},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206","metadata":[]}]}],"annotations":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127","type":"AnnotationPage","label":{"en":["Palmer, Crystal_Transcript_2017.07.31 [Transcript]"]},"items":[{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/1","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRaymond McDonald:\u003c/strong\u003e Hi, I'm Raymond McDonald. Good afternoon. Today we are here with Miss Crystal Palmer at UIC [University of Illinois, Chicago]. Today, I'll be asking Miss Palmer some things about oral history and I would like to present to you with uh, how are you?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=0.0,21.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/2","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCrystal Palmer:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm good. How about yourself?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=21.0,24.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/3","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRM:\u003c/strong\u003e I'm alright.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=24.0,25.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/4","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e Good.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=25.0,26.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/5","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRM:\u003c/strong\u003e This is a blessing to be here with you today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=26.0,29.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/6","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e Thank you","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=29.0,31.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/7","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRM:\u003c/strong\u003e So Miss Palmer, if you don't mind me asking, could you tell me a little bit about yourself?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=31.0,38.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/8","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e Um, I was raised in Henry Horner [Homes]. I have - I had three children, two passed away. I was married. My husband passed away. I had six siblings, two of them passed away. My mom and dad are deceased, also. And a host of other relatives. I have three grandchildren, and one daughter that's still living in my household now I'm raising—my niece lives with me with her two children, which is good. And my granddaughter. What else you wanna know about me?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=38.0,80.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/9","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRM:\u003c/strong\u003e Well, you say you came from the Henry Horners?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=80.0,81.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/10","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh, yeah.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=81.0,84.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/11","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRM:\u003c/strong\u003e Do you mind elaborating some of your experiences in the Horners?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=84.0,86.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/12","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e Oh wow, that's a lot of stuff to talk about. First, you need to know that I was a bad kid. I wouldn't say that, in today's term, they would call me ADA. No, because I wasn't a hyper kid. But I was a kid that was picked on a lot when I was in grammar school. And I learned how - my brother taught me how to defend myself. And that was an awakening for everybody. Because when I was in third grade, I used to get beat on by this guy every day. This young man every day, I go home, I'd be crying. Then I got to the fifth grade. Kids were always bothering me. You know, they call me black, baldhead - And I peed in the bed too when i was little too. So all that stigma went along with you and kids are cruel, and adult are too because adults are the ones that's supposed to protect you. But they don't protect you like they should protect you. So um, one day my brother got tired. And he taught me how to fight. We would go in the bedroom and jump up and down. He taught me how to bounce up and down how to hold my hand, how to throw punches and stuff like that- He taught me a skill. He really did. And I took that skill that he had taught me how to defend myself, And I used it. I’m known in Henry Horner for fighting, for fighting a lot because of the way that people treated you. And again, I'm gonna say that adults didn't protect you. So I had to learn how to protect myself. So um see like, every day I had a fight, and you have to know Suder I went to Suder school. Suder school is right outside my window. I lived um, 2051 West Lake - apartments 702. And I can look out the window And look at Suder School. I could look at the daycare center. I could look at the YMCA. And um, just school was a little rough. Grammar School was rough. I had a childhood where I played - I was really like by myself a lot because I got picked on and I fought and uh, you know, sometimes you don't want to do that, you want to have some peace.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=86.0,244.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/13","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e So I gravitated towards the social side of it, meaning the Black Panthers, Martin Luther King, doing a lot of marches and stuff like that. So my - my experience may have been a lot different than some of my peers because of that experience that I had. But just growing up, you know, it's a lot of fun. So, on the seventh floor on the side that I lived on, there were six apartments. Five apartments, five apartments 702, 703, 704, 705, 706 - So that's five apartments. And it was like, they told you that when you moved in the projects, you have to fight your way through. They didn't lie. They didn't lie. You probably experienced the same thing when you got in your building, they wanted to test you. So we had to fight the ramp. We called it a ramp. We had to fight the ramp, once we fought the ramp, then everybody was good. So you had my best friend Deborah Williams, You had the Browns who never really came outside they had kids, but they never really, like interacted with us. Then you have the Joneses who Brenda was my best friend. And then you have the Strickland's who had a whole lot of kids too, that was a lot of kids on the seventh floor, just on our ramp, we ain’t talking about going around the corners on the other two corners on a ramp. But there were a lot of kids and we had to be on the 7th floor at a certain time. You know, and we just all played out on the ramp running up and down the ramp, sometimes sneaking down to the fifth floor playing “it”, you know, running up and down. You can't - they can't know you then went to the fifth floor, or the third floor you got - you had to hurry up and run back up. Because it didn't know they were strict. They wanted to make sure the kids was safe, and knew what they were so you had to be on the ramp and it was playing plenty kids to play with on a ramp. I don't think I had any fights on the ramp until other families moving into had to go through the same ritual that we had to go through. I distinctly remember one family who was still my family today, the Alan's.(laughter) We were playing foot hockey, mind you at 13. I was pregnant at 13. But we're outside playing foot hockey. I'm playing - I am it aint no difference to me. And my friend, Lynn. They had just moved into build and she tore my shirt. And we got into a fight. So my sister jumped out, her sister jumped out, we got to fighting, unknowing that her mother was in our house with my mother, they run out. My mother got her mom's granddaughter, and her mom got my little brother, and they running out trying to see what's going on. And they broke us up. You know, we still tell the story about who won. I always say I won. We won. We beat y'all butt, we tore yall up simple is that. As I say we double teamed yall, I remember my sister me and her double teamed you and Niecy. Beat y'all up. And from that, I mean, that relationship has lasted all of these years. I'm 57 now and I was 13 then, so that's like 43-44 years. That's my family. You know, and you know, to me that that is what the projects was, you know, and still is today is a family- relationships that you built there, those relationships don't go nowhere. Even if people that you didn't like or they didn't like you, because you have reunions around, you know, every year you get to see those people even though you know, and it's still love because we have something in common together. You know, and that's the project.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=244.0,496.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/14","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e But like I said, I had a child when I was 13 years old. it's not that I was fast or anything like that. I wasn't fast because I was a tomboy. remember I said I beat up people. So people would never imagine me getting pregnant. But you know, you get bit by forbidden fruit right? You bite the forbidden fruit And that's what happens. So I had a daughter. When I was 14, two months after she was born, they found that she had a blood disease called Thalassemia. She was ill. And she looked different from other kids. We were at the hospital like every two weeks, every month. Because she was very ill. She had to get a lot of blood transfusions. That was very trying and testing - mind you I'm 14, I don't understand, You know, what's going on really I don't understand what's happening. And then shortly after that, two years later, I have my second daughter by the same guy not understanding that I should not be getting pregnant by this guy because I got one sick kid. We both had a rare disease called Thalassemia it was very rare that African American would get it you have to be like from over the Mediterranean seas you have to be like a Korean or some. They carry that trait. But I'm - somebody in our lifeline was from that heritage right? So I had another daughter, she was, she had a trait, a trait until she was six. And, you know, back and forth to the hospital, having to get my daughter shots at school, kids bothering her, same way they did me, because my daughter's look different, you know, the disease that they had, they were born normal, but the disease that they had turned their facial structures different. And just because they were different, again, people treat you different, which, as a parent, as a young parent, I really understand it. I'm back to that child again, because I am a child, and I want to hurt people. You know, because I gotta protect mine, even though I'm a child myself. So my daughter becomes major at six. My other daughters, it's already major in and out, having surgeries, many transfusions, a lot of sleepless nights, walking home every day from hospital leaving her there at the hospital, or leaving both them there at the hospital. My daughter, she passed away at nine years old. By this time, I done moved out of the project now. She dies at nine, but let's just go a little further back. Let's go back to me being different from everybody else. I had friends, you know, but I was different. I again, I was dealing with, you know, I was an activist at a young age, I was totally different than my peers. It wasn't that I was better than them. It's just that my thinking was different than them. Because when I was in the third grade, the grammar school Suder had a program, a substance abuse program that took you around the city and taught you you know, to say no to drugs, took you to halfway houses and you know, showed you addicts and stuff like that.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=496.0,740.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/15","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e So I was an activist and I you know, it was boring being by myself. I was bored being by myself. So my friend, Deborah Williams, we go to the store, her mom will never let her go to the store by herself. She made me go to the store with her because she wanted me to make sure she came back. She aint run off. So she made me go to the store because I was a good girl. So we go to the store and Deborah got a joint. And she say let's smoke this. Now i don't know, she been getting high all the time. I don't know nothing about this. I pulls off the joint and I take off and run, we on our way to to the store. I take off and run and hide around the building in 124 and she looking for me I don't know why I'm doing this right. Now mind you, we go to Starlight and get whatever we need to get go in the house and I stopped throwing all up. My brother Anthony be like “she pregnant!” How he know im preg- He don’t know. I can't tell nobody, you can’t tell yo mama you 13 and pregnant. And um, my mom, she paid attention to it. So they have old remedies and stuff that they gave you. So my mom gave me some turpentine, thought it would bring my - my menstrual cycle down. She gave me some turpentine and then some uh sugar. It was awful! It ain’t do none. It’s a baby in there. I don't know no better! Right? 13 years old, I don’t know no better. But mind you, by the time I was 13 I was having sex almost every day in our house. In my bed. Its ritual. Cause my kid's father was my brother's best friend So he had the freedom to walk through the house. He was in the very next room. Anyway, I um - Deborah gave me a hit off that. And then I think another time I had drunk some Richard's, got drunk, going up the stairs with the baby and bumped her head on the steps. Threw all up all over the steps . Crazy. That was not me though. But because I was isolated and I was different, and I was very smart. I was different. You know. I began to succumb to wanting to be like everybody else and not be so isolated and be by myself. I remember I was on my way to my grandma's house - she lived in ABLA, standing on Roosevelt and Racine, and Rick James song was out - busting out a L7. And I was sitting at that bus stop and i just remember I - I just looked at - I was singing the song but didn't know what he was talking about. And then when I - he was just saying bustin out of L 7, I took an L and 7 and put it together And it was a square!","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=740.0,925.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/16","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e I didn't understand that then that the song that it was a square. And I'll say, I'm busting out. I ain’t gone be no square no more. I'm gonna hang out with everybody else. You know, I'm a good kid. Even though I had a couple of kids. That don't mean I'm bad. But I'm gonna want to have some fun like everybody else. And then I start hanging out with people. And they were smoking marijuana. You know, my aunt. They drink smoke, you know, back in the day, if you did something, your aunt or your uncle would rather for you to do with them inside the house so you can be protected as opposed to outside. Not understanding that at some point in time, you're gonna have to go outside, cause they gonna stop taking care of you, and things that you might have to do- Right? So anyway, just start hanging out, and I got a job working at UIC. I still got two kids. I met this guy. As I was getting off the bus at Main Street. That's right on Damen and Lake. I met this cool, this cool guy. He was so cool. He was so cool. So I met this guy named Tommy white. Right. And I knew the day that I met him. I was gonna be with him for the rest of whoever's life. One of our lives. I knew it. I knew the moment that I met him. I met this guy and my mother can tell me nothing anymore. Mind you I was afraid of my mother. I was a good kid. So I did things about what she said. And I was afraid of her but I met Tommy white. And I remember saying she can't do what he do. So I ain't scared of her no more. I'm gonna stay outside and I start staying out I’ll come in at five in the morning my mom be like “where are you been” and i’ll be like outside - outside. She ain't like that cuz she was losing control - She was losing control of me. And I was going way to the left. Even though when I met Tommy he was a good guy. He got caught up in stuff like we all got caught up in the project. There's an element in the project that happens and a lot of us back in the 80s 90s got caught up in.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=925.0,1087.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/17","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[sound of sirens]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=1087.0,1090.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/18","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e I moved to my own apartment. He moved in with me. Mind you I got a child but then domestic violence sets in. You know you guys get, you know how you guys get yall I wanted to control women especially independent women, Im still an independent woman. I'm not asking for nobody to take care of me. But we got - I have two kids and he helps me with my children you know, but we got this other element that's going on you know like back then in the 80s we were drinking syrup and dropping pills. He was he would take my money out of my pocket and I got tired of him taking it out of my pocket and Let me taste this - If im gone spend my money let me taste this and that led to led to another downfall in my life. After working at UIC probably seven years I lost my job. I think I stayed out there for probably 10 years in and out, you know job here, job there. I always could get a job but you know, just caught up in the world And, you know, whats going on. everything thats cool and mellow, you know, everything is fun and some not fun but everything's good. I Moved out - No, no, no - I owed some rent so - because remember, I worked and You have to pay rent and I didn’t have the money to pay rent. So I moved out and I moved into another apartment because I probably owe way more than the rent was in this other apartment. But I'm still at that the projects, I can't leave the projects alone. This is where my my people, my foundation, my mom, my kids, my brothers, my sisters, my friends, my childhood friends, you know, everybody is still there. So I'm staying with my mom, my, my boyfriend's his mom and his sister. Everybody's still there. So even though I move out, I'm still there every day. I can't get over that part of my life. I've got to go back more. So I think probably I have a kid now I have a kid I have Tammy, before we leave the project. And, move out, And probably two months later, my daughter dies. I can remember the day I went to, we went to the park. We live right across the street from Humboldt Park. So we went to the park and went to the lil beach they had just built and my um, my mind you im in my world at the same time. She gets up that morning, my daughter comes in and say mom, DD sick. She passed out, I'm in my own world still, still sleep, I get up and check on it's like, okay, she got a fever, I said, Let's lay down, put a cold towel on, her daughter come back in and says that she passes out. I called ambulance, get the ambulance, I got two kids, a little baby and my other daughter with me. So I'm trying to get them over to my mom's house. Mind you my husband went to the store to get some cereal - This is this is deep here -He wants to store to get some cereal. He never made it back. Because remember we in our own world. And so we got to the hospital, I need somebody to get my two daughters while I'm there with her. I leave the hospital when I go take my daughter over to my mom's house. When I get back to the hospital they tell me my daughter died. The worse feeling, that was a bad one. That was, that was bad one. I think I’m bout 20 - 21. She died when she was 9 - 20, 21 years old. It’s deep, I go back to the projects, I'm in the project, back in the building, back doing the same old crazy stuff. You know, even though living in a project, they are very good aspects of of it. the foundation, you know, but there's a lot of negative stuff that when you really look at it, and you really, you know, come out of the cloud of what you're life is like now and you go back into the past, there's a lot of hurt a lot of pain, you know, that goes along with it. That, that kind of sticks out to me, I didn't used to talk about it. Because it was too hurtful. It hurt a lot to talk about it. And my daughter told my mother that the reason why my daughter died is because Tommy didn't come back with the cereal. And I never forget that. So my mother she harbored that against him forever, for a very long time. And in turn it harbored against me also because I didn't take care. So what my mom did is she took my daughter and she moved her with her in the project. Now me and the baby we're out here and my other daughter is back in the project. So she has this whole life in the project, she's raised like I'm raised.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=1090.0,1416.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/19","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e you know um the projects just always there. a lot of fun - I can talk about for Patticia Mims, all the drugs that we - oh god - just a lot of stuff. Drugs, pills, you know, partying, when you 20 years old, you party, you know, and you don't care about what the consequences is, you just care about what's going on at that moment. You don't care that your life is passing you by and that you should have something else in life other than, you know, a lot of hurt and pain and a lot and a lot of fun because, okay, don't get it wrong, There's a lot of fun too. But there was a lot of hurt and a lot of pain. You know, again, I was a different kid. I was a really different kid. I got honors, I got awards for report cards, you know, all A's but the UN conduct remember I told you about that. That I was bullied forever. And I became just that what - everything that I despise. Being a bully, I became a bully. People still may call me a bully now, I'm not a bully im just firm what I believe in. I'm just firm. I'm not a bully and I can you know I can kind of be a little strong with it. I try not to, but that's my personality. You know. So, I mean, eventually, my mom dies And we all have to move out of the apartment. That was That was rough. Because now we're all scattered. And we're all homeless, nowhere to go. there’s a lot of kids involved in it, a lot of nieces and nephews involved in it. I think when my mom died, other than my daughter died, it was the most hurtful thing because you lost the foundation. Because your mom is always there. Even in the bad times when I got beat up. My mom was still always there. You know, even with her strictness and you know, just her guidance and the stuff that she put inside me, you know, to develop me the woman I am today, you know, you you miss that. And when - and my mom, she was a crossing guard. So everybody, every kid knew my mom, every mama knew my mom, because my mom protected they kids. They were always at our house. They always at our house and you know, if they got in trouble, all they had to do was call CP because they up there with her. My mom had a chair in her room, a little bench like, it was a chair, a bench or something that people used to come into her room and sit down and talk to her about- me too, I talked about a lot stuff that I needed to talk to. You know, those are just some of the values that came out of the project. Again the relationships that we build with each other, that forever with us for life.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=1416.0,1610.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/20","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e I went to a memorial service yesterday, one of my friend's mom, she was 68 years old. Man that lady had an impact in my life because she had eight girls, and if you got eight girls and how many friends through them 8 girls, I was one of them were my two kids at our house all the time. Same lady up until death, those kinds of relationships and those kinds of values that's been instilled in us. We didn't just learn from our parents, we learned em from our neighbors. Miss Merle was the best cook on Earth. I mean, I can go from house to house to house and eat. When there was a time in our life, in our family where there was no food to eat. There was no food to eat, my father would make cornbread and gravy. I love cornbread and gravy today. But they had to eat cornbread and gravy. And I can go to one of my friend's house down the ramp, and eat a home cooked meal. Those kind of relationships, kind of relationships you get from Projects - everybody may not have been able to do that. I know my siblings weren't able to do that. But I can go to anybody's house and open up the door and walk in and open up a refrigerator get me something to eat, when they sit down to eat. I eat, you know, especially at a time when there was no food in the house. You know it’s those kinds of relationships, when I need somebody to watch my kids, those kinds of relationships, you know, so I can go to work. I'm an independent woman now I need to get a job. I need to take care of my family, you know, had them to do that also. So it's stuff like that. My mother in law. My mother in law was one of those. They come from 22 - 21 45 West Lake. she was a heavyset lady, but you can tell she had a pop bottle shape when she was younger. And this lady right here seven year olds would look at her walking down the street. Yes, cuz she could pop it and she had a big, big big - my butt is big, but hers was two of mine. I really mean that. And she could walk down the street and shake that - oh my god - And you know, they used to talk about how they she used to come downstairs in a bathing suit and do all kinds of-Oh crazy crazy stuff! You know, which embarrassed my, my husband when they were a kid. But when I met her she was - she was a heavyset woman, but she was very flexible. She can take her feet and put all the way up to the doorway. She can stand on my head, put her hand on the floor - I couldn't ever do that. She was very flexible. She taught me about fresh fish. She taught me how to grow gardens. You know, how to eat fresh vegetables, fresh fruit and she grew them all herself. I didn't get that from home.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=1610.0,1801.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/21","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e Because quiet as it's kept, my mom wasn't the greatest cook. My father was the best cook. He was the best cook. But by that time he was - she had him put out. She had him, you know, back back then, and 70s 60s and 70s when the welfare stuff was going on, and they took the man out of the house, you had to have two parent households to move in. And then when Mr. Welfare came around, you gotta put the husband out, you know. But that was hard. That was hard for my father to leave. Especially, the other part of my life is my mom, she left us for I thought it was five years, it might have been one year I don't know (laughter.) It just seemed like it was that long that she, she went off and had another relationship and stayed with another person, another man. And I didn't like that. Because that took her away from us. And I always wanted to be with my father. I always wanted to be with my father, my father was the stuff. He loved me to death. I didn't like - I didn't like the fact that we had to go where she had where she was where she was, because I just wanted to be with my father. But there were times where I guess she wanted us to be with her. And there was a lot of drama, when she came back home - when she came home to visit or like on a weekend or some that would always be fighting, which was really traumatic. That was one of the worst things about the project is that when she came home, it was always a fight. And she would hurt my father early, bad. And those things stuck with me in my head, I'd be walking around crazy is the best bug with stuff running around in my head, till I learned how to protect myself by taking all those thoughts and putting them way in the back of my head. As a little kid, I had to do that. You know, but eventually, I think I was about 12, when she came back, 11 - 12 When she came back, and she came back trying to change stuff, we ain't like that. And she took our father and put them out for him never ever to come back home. And that's really traumatic on kids. But my mother was a strong, strong woman, she knew how to handle us. She knew she knew how to handle- and then remind you, you got all these other mothers that are single parents, too. I don't know, they had boyfriends. They all have boyfriends, but they were all single women. They were all single women. And they all took care of all the kids. And today, I know that's my foundation, all those women on that seventh floor, on the fifth floor, in the third floor, first floor, and even on the eighth floor, that you know, build my character today.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=1801.0,1998.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/22","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e So let's just go on further in life. After getting off, you know, substance, I went in treatment, got myself together, changed my whole life, start working for property management. Move back to the project. But it's not the project now. It's called West Haven. Moving in scatter site as a janitor clean up, you know, I got to - people may not believe this, but this is it true that I got a calling from God. To go back here, go back there. And I remember walking through the field, And I was like, God, why you got me here? And it was a black shadow - a black ring like overhead if you ever seen a movie called uh, The V, where there’s a …whatchucallit? A saucer! But it's a cloud over. I’m like Why do you bring me back here after I've been away from here, got my life together. He said I want you to go back and show my people, your peers, that they too can do the same as you. I want you to be the example that they too can get they life right. So I went to start working for them. And I did just what he wanted me to do. He wanted me to draw people near to him. He wanted me to draw people near and show people that they didn't have have to live on drugs, that they can live sober, and go on with they life and be better in life and raise their kids and be responsible, productive members of society. And through that after working, you know, and getting to know a whole lot of people, um I got fired from a job, I got fired from one of the companies, and they upset me. And I said, the person that fired me was from Horner also. And I promised myself that every time she seen me, I was gonna be in a meeting, just like her, cause she was a property manager. I was like, you're gonna see me and I’m gonna be right where you are. And did that, started an organization, And then I ran for LAC. I ran for LAC, they wanted me to run for president, I was like, Nah, we're not gonna do that. I said, let me get in and see what it's like first. So the first time I ran for treasurer, second term, I ran for LAC president, I run - I won the election by two points, I beat someone that had been in office for 32 years. It was a battle. Because they did a lot of stuff. But it was a battle. And if something is ordained by God, it doesn't matter who tried to attack attack it, it won't prosper. But I knew that I had to get in and do some work and convince people that I didn't just come there for nothing. I didn't come out of stir up anything. I came there to stir up stuff, but I didn't come to stir up in a negative way. I came started up in a positive way, and to build people's relationships, and to build people's quality of life and instilled in them that they can do better, that they should do better. And that we can help you get to that point. So God opened those doors for me. And I just started teaching what he gave me to people. And then from that I done traveled all around the place telling the story about public housing, telling him my story, you know, about, you know, you can- just cause you from public housing does not mean that you at the bottom of the barrel, even though society may think that because it's just a bias perception.","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=1998.0,2257.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/23","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e You know, when people sit down and talk to you and me, they don't see a project once they get to know us and talk to us. They don't see that. You know, it's a perception that people have. People write books, some books are fictional. Some books are non fictional. There's a lot of nonfictional books that's going on. Now, if you want to know facts, you go to the people. And that's where you get the truth about what happened in the project. Yep! There was a lot of people got killed. Yup! A lot of people lost they lives. You know, they don't talk about people falling out of windows, babies falling out of windows, dying, fallin from of 14th, 13th, 15th, 16th floor and talk about that. They don’t talk about the fires that happened in the buildings and people were locked in their houses, They had bars on a door because they're afraid people are going to break in the house and steal all this stuff. And people life - they die. But they talk about all the negative stuff about somebody got shot or they gangbangers or they do that. What about other stuff that went on in a projects that people don't talk about? Right, that we, you and me, had to live through our stories that are the truth, not a fictional character, a real character that can tell the value of what public housing has done for us. Yep, that was some negative stuff. But lo and behold, there was some great stuff. I stand here today in greatness as a product of public housing. Everywhere I go, I tell him from public housing. I am, I’m from public housing, and it's so entrenched in me that when I bought my home, I bought my home less than a mile away on the same street. 2051 was on Maypole, the back of the building was on Maypole and Hoyne. I live on Maypole and California. The same street, that same L that ran through making all that noise. I hear that same L every day. And you know my daughter say, “mom you always move in the same neighborhood.” And I was like “girl Why would I want to go somewhere else? Why would I want to go somewhere else? This place has given me my life. It has built me to this person that I am today. Why would I want to move away from that? My foundation is there. My friends are still there. That's my community, and why would I want to leave?” I invested my life in this place, and it invest it’s life into me. So no, I'm not going anywhere. That's what that project mean to me. Thank you. Any other questions?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=2257.0,2440.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/24","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRM :\u003c/strong\u003e Yeah. Just give me a little time. So could you elaborate on what's your thoughts about the changes of communities in Chicago? Or, or like places like Cabrini Green and Horners where gentrification might have happened?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=2440.0,2461.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/25","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP :\u003c/strong\u003e Oh yeah. Oh, yeah, that, you know, we all have, you know, some type of issue with the projects being torn down. But if you were there, during the time when it was real bad, I'm talm bout real bad with the maintenance of the building, and I was there when it was real good - When It was flowers in the front, when the hallways were clean, the incinerators were clean, that we scrubbed our ramps every day, that it was good, no walking on the grass. To the time when it was real bad, a lot of vacancies. Urine, feces in hallways, elevators didn't work. No grass, trash all over the place. You know, just not a… decent place to live. Even though it’s our house. When you looked outside at that time it looked deplorable. But if you went inside people houses, it didn't look the same inside as it did outside. And then you went in some other people houses and it look just like it did outside. So it was… yes, the buildings were tore down, they probably could have done something different. But now I think is better. I know it's better, I don't think it's better. I know it's better. I think people quality of life is much better. Yeah, we still have a lot of work to work on. But people's quality of life is much better. And then back then when the building was up, there was so many health issues and you know, employment rate was low and and gangs had took over the buildings and stuff like that. Man, you remember when they used to lock the buildings down? They used to lock the buildings down and you couldn't come in? the drug dealers locked the buildings down, they let you in and out of the building, you couldn't get in. You don't worry about that now. Because you livein in three stories, you might have your own house, you know, walk ups, you know, nice buildings, you know, So for me the quality of life that our families have now is much, much better than it was in the 90s and 2000s. So is it a benefit? Yes. Is it a positive? Yes. Most definitely. I haven't heard of any child falling out a window. Dying. We have very few fires, when we use have a lot of fires. We have very few fires. I'm talking about maybe two three a year. So this is the whole entire development a whole entire city of public housing. So it's better in than the services that Chicago Housing Authority provide families and pay a lot of money for services that we provide that they never had job training. Yes, it did. When the plan first rolled out they started doing step up programs and stuff like that, but I'm talking about since the plan started 99 they've been providing job training section three jobs. Programs for the kid’s park district. College - sending kids off to college, giving them scholarships and giving them books and giving them stuff to go in they dorm room. I mean, it's so many things, so many different programs. I mean, I can go down a whole list of them because I do work for the Chicago Housing Authority And I do run a lot of these programs, but you know, the quality of life that that residents have now I think back then the rate of somebody graduating from high school was at its all time low. And if we look at it now, the rate of people graduating, that's not just seniors, we're talking about older people. Going back to college, going back to school, getting a GED, getting a bachelor's degree, getting they master's degree, getting they associate's degree, getting PhDs, stuff like that, That wasn't heard of back in the 90s, the 70s 80s 90s 2000. Today that happens. So it is a triple X benefit for families of public housing. Now, here's the here's the the negative side to it, is that a lot of our families don't take advantage of it. Because a lot of our families are still stuck in the 90s and 2000, they still have issues that they have not resolved. We have clinical services, we refer you to places where you can get help with that. But some people just don't know how to do it. And then that stagnates them. But then you got a lot of people, our young people, we trying to make sure that our young people get an opportunity at life. So this plan that we have, is the best plan. It wasn't then. It wasn't then. because people didn't understand change. But as change, evolve, and it will continue to evolve, people lives are gonna continue to change as a result of this. So what is your definition, or your vision of change in the city of Chicago, from your time at Henry Horners as a child to now what what is your - what was your - What is the picture of change for you? As far as being in the city of Chicago?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=2461.0,2806.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/26","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eRM:\u003c/strong\u003e So what is your definition, or your vision of change in the city of Chicago, from your time at Henry Horners as a child to now what what is your - what was your - What is the picture of change for you? As far as being in the city of Chicago?","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=2806.0,2806.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/27","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"So what is your definition, or your vision of change in the city of Chicago, from your time at Henry Horners as a child to now what what is your - what was your - What is the picture of change for you? As far as being in the city of Chicago? [sirens going off]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=2806.0,2835.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/28","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[sirens stop]","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=2835.0,6426.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/29","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"\u003cstrong\u003eCP:\u003c/strong\u003e So the of picture of change for me is a family, a total family if possible, moving towards self sufficiency. I preach self sufficiency, because I was that person that got a leg up and became self sufficient. We all can become - everybody's not going to be able to become but - the majority of us can become self sufficient and then becoming self sufficient, you open doors for those other 200,000 people that are out there on the waitlist, waiting, dying to get an opportunity to become self sufficient. That's the changes that we have to change to that point that we have to be able to maintain and take care of ourselves. So other people—","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=6426.0,6472.0"},{"id":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206/transcript/74127/annotation/30","type":"Annotation","motivation":"transcribing","body":{"type":"TextualBody","value":"[recording ends unexpectedly] \n\nEND OF INTERVIEW","format":"text/plain"},"target":"https://nphm.aviaryplatform.com/collections/2733/collection_resources/128701/file/250206#t=6472.0,6475.0"}]}]}]}